\n<\/p>\n
Three years ago, Atomic Habits<\/em><\/strong><\/a> was released. In this groundbreaking book, author James Clear<\/strong><\/a> asks a complex question \u201cwhy do we continue our bad habits while neglecting good habits?<\/strong>\u201d While it\u2019s not as easy as simply saying, \u201cI want to be better, hence I\u2019ll stop doing this\u201d, there are some ways that you can convince (and often trick) yourself into developing the habits<\/strong> that will help you create a better life.<\/p>\n The first thing to know about habits is that they aren\u2019t a minimal part of your life. Your habits are what your life is built upon<\/strong>. Do you habitually clean your room every week? You\u2019re most likely a clean and well-organized person. Are you constantly looking for ways to save money<\/a>? You probably have a decent-sized bank account. If you want to become the \u201cmoney person\u201d or the \u201chelpful person\u201d or the \u201cintelligent person\u201d you need to start adopting the habits that someone in those positions would have<\/strong>.<\/p>\n So how do you develop a good habit<\/strong><\/a>? More importantly, how do you halt your <\/strong>bad habits<\/strong><\/a> from derailing your entire life<\/strong>? James walks through a few key ways to do this, from making habit cues less obvious, to changing your environment, to removing yourself from the choice entirely<\/strong>. One thing is for certain, if you want to change your life for the better, you need to start changing your habits.<\/p>\n Brandon Turner: James Clear: Speaker 1: Brandon Turner: David Greene: Brandon Turner: David Greene: Brandon Turner: Brandon Turner: Brandon Turner: David Greene: Brandon Turner: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: David Greene: David Greene: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: David Greene: James Clear: Brandon Turner: David Greene: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: David Greene: David Greene: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: Brandon Turner: David Greene: Brandon Turner: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: James Clear: David Greene: Brandon Turner: David Greene: James Clear: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: Brandon Turner: Brandon Turner: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: Brandon Turner: Brandon Turner: James Clear: James Clear: David Greene: David Greene: David Greene: James Clear: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: James Clear: David Greene: Brandon Turner: David Greene: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: Brandon Turner: Brandon Turner: James Clear: Brandon Turner: Speaker 2: Brandon Turner: James Clear: David Greene: James Clear: James Clear: Brandon Turner: David Greene: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: Brandon Turner: David Greene: Brandon Turner: Brandon Turner: James Clear: James Clear: Brandon Turner: David Greene: Brandon Turner: James Clear: James Clear: James Clear: David Greene: James Clear: Brandon Turner: James Clear: Brandon Turner: David Greene: Speaker 1: \u00a0<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Help us reach new listeners on iTunes by leaving us a rating and review! It takes just 30 seconds and instructions can be found here<\/a>. Thanks! We really appreciate it!<\/p>\n
This is the BiggerPockets podcast show 485.<\/p>\n
The direction of your life bends, the arc of your life bends in the direction of your habits. So, sure, there are other things in life that influence outcomes, luck or randomness or misfortune, but by definition, those things are not under your control. The only reasonable rational approach is to focus on the stuff that\u2019s in your control, and your habits and your choices are.<\/p>\n
You\u2019re listening to BiggerPockets radio, simplifying real estate for investors, large and small. If you\u2019re here looking to learn about real estate investing, without all the hype, you\u2019re in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com, your home for real estate investing online.<\/p>\n
What\u2019s going on everyone? It\u2019s Brandon Turner, host of the Bigger Pockets Podcast here actually at BiggerPockets headquarters, which is weird because I\u2019m never here in Denver, but here at BP headquarters with digitally, my buddy David Greene, who coincidentally is actually in Maui. What\u2019s up, buddy?<\/p>\n
Yeah, that\u2019s funny. I\u2019m actually in Maui at one of the condos that I bought and you left.<\/p>\n
Yeah. I got this a big huge, like 30 something million dollar multifamily deal that we\u2019re buying here out in Vail county or Vail Valley is what they call it. It\u2019s like out near the ski resorts, like Vail. It\u2019s crazy. I went and looked at it, it\u2019s awesome. So yeah, that\u2019s what\u2019s going on maybe, you got some condos, all that going good. You\u2019re going to rent it out soon?<\/p>\n
Yeah, I\u2019m meeting with some people today to go over, putting a team together who\u2019s going to kind of do the Airbnb thing, I\u2019m still looking to find other people that have done this before that I can kind of consult with and possibly hire, but it looks like for the rest of the year, I\u2019m going to kind of be moving in the direction of buying more short term rentals and putting a team in place to try to manage those and trying to figure that game out.<\/p>\n
Cool, man, I love it. I love it, taking action. Well, today\u2019s show is with an author, you\u2019ve probably heard it before, James Clear. He\u2019s a \u2026 I mean, his book Atomic Habits has sold well over four million copies now, it\u2019s been on the top of every booksellers\u2019 list for \u2026 since it came out. It\u2019s always like listed as like one of the top books in the world. It\u2019s hugely influential to a lot of people, a lot of people have mentioned on the podcast before. So we are super stoked to bring you an interview with him today. We talk all about habit creation, how to build new habits that are good, how to destroy bad ones, what is a good habit versus a bad habit. We talk a lot about how habits get placed in the business, and I give some examples of my own business, how I\u2019ve used habits in my team to buy a lot of real estate and David, I know you do the same.<\/p>\n
We talk about how habits affect, I mean, really every area of your life. So this is probably one of the most important episodes you could ever listen to, of any podcast. I\u2019m not just saying that because I\u2019m \u2026 it\u2019s a BiggerPockets show. Literally, this concept is life changing. So I\u2019m excited for you to hear it but first, let\u2019s get to today\u2019s quick tip. Listen on the show, we talk about habits and one of the examples I give is about the habit of analyzing deals. So, if you have not mastered that art of being able to run the numbers and feel comfortable making an offer, because you know exactly how much that property is worth and how much you should pay for it, if you have not done that, we offer free training every single week at BiggerPockets on how to run the numbers on deals.<\/p>\n
So we do these webinars every week and when you attend, we do a real life deal analysis every single time because we know that\u2019s important. So attend any webinar that we do. Just go to biggerpockets.com, forward slash \u2026 I think it\u2019s forward slash, webinars, plural, will get you there and you can attend the next webinar, learn how to analyze deals and get better and better at that. If you\u2019re an existing pro member, by the way, you don\u2019t even have to attend live. You can watch replays anytime you want to in the BiggerPockets Pro replay room. So that\u2019s your quick tip, is build the habit of analyzing deals, it\u2019ll change your real estate life forever. That\u2019s our quick tip. All right, with that said, I think we\u2019re ready to get into today\u2019s episode. Now, David, anything you want to say before we jump in with James.<\/p>\n
I really enjoyed our conversation with James, I think people are going to get a lot out of it. Especially if you are an investor who\u2019s trying to figure out why you\u2019re not getting traction. Why is it so hard to get going or why does this just feel scary all the time. Today\u2019s episode has a lot for you specifically.<\/p>\n
Enjoy the episode, and if you like it, don\u2019t forget to leave a rating review in iTunes or wherever you\u2019re listening to the podcast at, let the world know it\u2019s really good, maybe share it with somebody you think would be powerful. This is not a real estate show. We barely talk real estate today, so anybody that\u2019s in your world that could benefit from better habits would probably like this show. So do us a favor, share it on your Instagram, on your Facebook, whatever you can do, clips of it, social media, take a picture of it, help us spread the word about the power of developing Atomic Habits. Let\u2019s get to the interview with James Clear. All right, James, welcome to the BiggerPockets Podcast, man. It\u2019s awesome to have you here.<\/p>\n
Hey, great to talk to you. Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n
Yeah, so let\u2019s dive into your story a little bit before we get into the topic, I want to cover today which is obviously habits but before being the guy that sold millions of this book and kind of a household name in the personal development world, what were you doing, what was your kind of background?<\/p>\n
Well, I was always into science and I like school and sports. So I played baseball all the way through college and then, I studied science as well. I was there. Technically, my degree is in biomechanics, but it\u2019s mostly like chemistry and physics classes and stuff. Then after that, I went to get my MBA, which is kind of where I started to get exposed to entrepreneurship. I saw my job, my on campus job was I work in the Center for Entrepreneurship. So, I saw a bunch of people starting companies and rolling stuff out and I was like, \u201cMaybe I should try that, after I get done.\u201d So when I graduated, I gave it a shot and had no idea what I was doing. So the first two years, I just kind of stumbled around and tried a bunch of ideas and nothing really stuck.<\/p>\n
Eventually, I realized that one of the reasons I was struggling is because I didn\u2019t have an audience. I launched these products and didn\u2019t have anybody to tell. So I started writing to build my business. I started writing to build an email list and have a company hopefully, that would succeed. This weird thing happened along the way, which is \u2026 it turns out, I liked writing and I was good at building an email list. So, I kind of stumbled into these skills that I didn\u2019t seek out from the beginning. I wrote about all kinds of stuff early on. I wrote about health and fitness and weight training and medicine. I also wrote about habits and strategy and decision making and some of the stuff that I write about now.<\/p>\n
It turns out, the other stuff was fine, but what people really wanted to hear from me on was about habits and strategy and decision making. The more I wrote about that stuff, the bigger the audience got, and I was like, \u201cWell, that\u2019s where the Venn diagram,\u201d overlap is, of like, what I like, and I\u2019m interested in and what the audience likes. So I\u2019ll do more of that and eventually, after a couple years that led to signing the book deal for Atomic Habits, and then ultimately writing it.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s awesome. Well, a couple years ago, I put together a \u2026 we have a journal. I mean, there\u2019s lots of journals out there, but we have a journal at BiggerPockets called the intention journal, and I did a ton of research on habits and goal setting, and all that stuff. I just kept coming across your blog, like, over and over and over and over. I feel like half of my research just came from the research you did. So you save me a lot of time. So thank you for that, but why did habits or why do habits in this concept fascinates you? Why is it worth writing a book on? Why is it so important that we learn about habits?<\/p>\n
I mean, first of all, your brain is building habits, whether you\u2019re thinking about it or not. It\u2019s a process that your brain goes through to try to automate whatever it can. So depending on the research study you look at, somewhere between 40 to 50% of your behaviors are automatic and habitual each day. So usually, it\u2019s small things like tying your shoes or brushing your teeth or unplugging the toaster after each use, like stuff like that. I think actually, the true impact of your habits is even larger, because a lot of the automatic decisions that you make, end up setting the context for the conscious decisions you make afterwards. So like, if you\u2019re standing in line at a store, and you automatically check your phone, you just kind of habitually pull it out of your pocket and look at it.<\/p>\n
Well, the next 10 minutes might be carefully thinking, \u201cOh, I need to respond to this email, or I\u2019m reading an article or browsing social media.\u201d Everything you\u2019re doing there was already \u2026 the context for that was set by the habit of pulling your phone out of your pocket. So the true influence to them is probably even larger than 40, 50%. I mean, they shape all kinds of stuff throughout our day. So, that\u2019s one reason to learn about it, you\u2019re already going to be building them. Well, might as well, if you\u2019re going to be doing this all the time anyway, understand how to be the architect of your habits rather than the victim of them, because a lot of people feel like their habits are happening to them.<\/p>\n
Then, the second thing is, if you step back and think about the outcomes in your life, the direction of your life bends, the arc of your life bends in the direction of your habits. So, sure, there are other things in life that influence outcomes, luck, or randomness, or misfortune but by definition, those things are not under your control. The only reasonable rational approach is to focus on the stuff that\u2019s in your control, and your habits and your choices are, and they also strongly influence those outcomes. So, in many areas of life, your results are a lagging measure of your habits. Your health and fitness is a lagging measure of your eating and training habits. Your bank account is a lagging measure of your financial habits.<\/p>\n
Your knowledge is a lagging measure of your reading and learning habits. Even like the clutter in your bedroom is a lagging measure of your cleaning habits. So there\u2019s kind of this, like great irony of life, which is we also badly want better results. We also badly want to be fit or to have more money or to have peace of mind. The results are not actually the thing that needs to change. It\u2019s like fix the habits and the results will fix themselves, fix the inputs, and the outputs will fix themselves. So, because habits exerts such a strong influence on your results in all areas of life, I think they\u2019re really critical thing to talk about and to understand, and that was one of the things that got me interested in them to begin with.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s cool, man. Yeah, I wrote down a quote here from the book it says, \u201cThe more you repeat a behavior, the more you reinforce the identity associated with that behavior.\u201d Can you talk about \u2026 what do you mean by identity, and how does that play into what you just talked about?<\/p>\n
So far, we\u2019ve only discussed habits is like the method to achieving a particular result, and it\u2019s true that habits can help you do those things. They can help you be more productive or get fit or reduce stress or whatever. That\u2019s great, that they can get external results, but I think the real reason, the true reason that habits matter is that they can reshape your sense of self. They can give you a new story about who you are, the identity that you assign to yourself. So, in a sense, true behavior change is really identity change, it\u2019s really changing the story about who you are, and why you do the things you do. That\u2019s why I\u2019ll say some stuff like, the real goal is not to run a marathon, the goal is to become a runner.<\/p>\n
The goal is not to read a book, the goal is to become a reader, the goal is not to do a silent meditation retreat, it\u2019s to become a meditator. In those cases, I\u2019m using actual labels like reader and runner and meditator, but you can do it with characteristics too. You can be like, I\u2019m the kind of person who shows up on time, or I\u2019m the type of person who\u2019s reliable or I finish what I started, I\u2019m a good teammate and all of these labels or characteristics, they\u2019re aspects of your identity, some more than others but whether you believe in that being part of who you are, is heavily influenced by the habits that you perform. So, in a sense, your habits are how you embody a particular identity. Every day that you make your bed, you embody the identity of someone who is clean and organized.<\/p>\n
The more that you do that, the more you believe in that story. So every action you take, is like a vote for the type of person you wish to become, and doing one push up, no, it doesn\u2019t radically transform your body but it does cast a vote for I\u2019m the type of person who doesn\u2019t miss workouts. Writing one sentence, no, it may not finish the novel, but it does cast a vote for I\u2019m a writer. The more that you cast those votes, the more you build up evidence of being that kind of person, the more you give yourself a reason to believe in that kind of story. I think that\u2019s probably one of the things that\u2019s a little bit different about my approach or philosophy than what you often hear. You\u2019ll often hear something like, fake it till you make it.<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t necessarily have anything wrong with fake it until you make it. It\u2019s encouraging you to believe something positive about yourself, but it\u2019s encouraging you to believe something positive without having evidence for it. We have a word for beliefs that don\u2019t have evidence. We call that delusion, right? At some point, your brain doesn\u2019t like this mismatch between what you\u2019re saying you are and what you\u2019re actually doing. So, behavior and beliefs are a two way street. What you believe about yourself will influence the way you act and the actions you take will influence the story that you tell yourself about who you are. My argument is, let the behavior lead the way. Let\u2019s start with one push up or sending one email or writing one sentence or meditating for one minute and it doesn\u2019t sound like much.<\/p>\n
In that moment, you cannot deny that you were that kind of person. The more you build up those votes, the more you build up this body of evidence, the stronger and more solidly you believe in that identity.<\/p>\n
When you mentioned habits, I know \u2026 and I am thinking most of our listeners may be in the same boat, there\u2019s this negative visceral response, I don\u2019t like the thought of having to build a habit, habit immediately sounds like discipline routine, bad. There\u2019s like \u2026 very rarely do I hear I need a good habit and get excited about it. It\u2019s usually get rid of a bad habit, and this has come up in my life so often as of late, I\u2019m constantly thinking about this. I started to think about the word habit and just exchange it for programming, what you\u2019re really describing is every action you take affects the code that your life works off of. That code could be working for you in making your goals easier or against you and making them difficult.<\/p>\n
When I started thinking about it as programming, it became a whole lot easier to embrace that this is really what life is about. If you want a better life, that\u2019s how you get there in many ways and there\u2019s a lot more we\u2019re going to talk about, I\u2019m sure but do you think James that I\u2019m on the right path with my understanding of it?<\/p>\n
Yeah, there\u2019s something central about the meaning that you assign to events in your life and the story that you tell about what\u2019s going on, and that programming as you phrase it, or that script that you\u2019re running on, is at the core of every habit. I break a habit into four different stages. You\u2019ve got this cue, craving, response and reward. The craving part is the programming part that you\u2019re talking about. It\u2019s a core piece of what drives the habit and it\u2019s largely about the meaning that you assigned to different things. For example, if you walk into the kitchen, you see a plate of cookies, so that\u2019s a visual cue. You see the cookie on the counter, but the next thing that happens is your brain kind of automatically assigns a meaning to it, it predicts, \u201cOh, those cookies will be sweet, sugary, tasty, enjoyable.\u201d<\/p>\n
It\u2019s actually that story in your mind about what a cookie is, and the fact that it\u2019s tasty, that motivates you to pick it up and take a bite and so on. So if you could somehow change the story, like imagine if every time you saw a cookie, somebody punched you in the face, well now, all of a sudden, you would have a negative connotation, a negative association with that thing. That of course, is an extreme example. I mean, it\u2019s not going to work in real life, but the point that I\u2019m getting at is almost all of your behaviors, we think life is reactive, we think, \u201cOh, something happens to us and then I respond. Somebody says something in conversation, and then I feel a certain way.\u201d<\/p>\n
In fact, almost all of life is predictive. Your brain is almost continually going through life and predicting. What should I say in the next sentence? What does that mean when I look across the kitchen, I see the cookies, what are those? Do they have favorable association and unfavorable one. So all of these predictions that your brain is constantly making that shape, the actions that you take and help determine, the next step that happens. So, yes, I think the short answer is the programming that\u2019s going on or the associations that you\u2019ve learned throughout your life are a core piece of why you fall into certain habits and avoid other ones.<\/p>\n
You mentioned that results are a lagging indicator of the choices you\u2019re making, or your habits that is referring to the Four Disciplines of Execution concepts.<\/p>\n
I know 4DX, I know the term but I\u2019ve never read the book, so I\u2019m not sure exactly what you\u2019re referring to.<\/p>\n
It seems to be the same concept. Yeah.<\/p>\n
Yeah, so just to catch everybody up, the idea would be, if you look at the scale, when you\u2019re trying to \u2026 if your goal is to lose weight, if you look at the scale to see what you weigh, that is a lagging indicator, it is a revelation of things you\u2019ve already done. Leading indicators would be the opposite of that, which would be measuring how many times you go to the gym or measuring your caloric intake.<\/p>\n
So there\u2019s definitely some similarity there. Like I said, I\u2019m not totally familiar with how they phrase it, but it sounds like the same idea. In terms of habits, the important thing that I like to distinguish is \u2026 and I think this actually helps us define what is a good habit and what is a bad habit? Because a lot of the time people will say something like, \u201cWell, it\u2019s a bad habit, why do I keep doing it,\u201d or they just feel that way? It\u2019s like, \u201cWell, obviously, why do I keep falling into these things that aren\u2019t good for me?\u201d The truth is, all behaviors serve you in some way, so like smoking a cigarette is like the classic example of a bad habit but if you smoke outside with a friend, as a part of the work break, well, then you get some socialization out of it.<\/p>\n
You get friendship out of it or if you smoke at the end of the workday, maybe you get some stress relief out of it. So there are things that those behaviors do that serve you, even if ultimately they don\u2019t. So the way that I like to distinguish good habit versus bad habit, and this ties directly to your point about leading versus lagging indicators, you can imagine pretty much all behaviors is producing multiple outcomes across time. So broadly speaking, we have an immediate outcome, and we have an ultimate outcome. With bad habits, the immediate outcome is often pretty favorable. You smoke a cigarette, and you get to socialize right away or you eat a doughnut, and it\u2019s sweet, and sugary and tasty right now.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s only the ultimate outcome, if you keep eating doughnuts for two years, or if you keep smoking, that is unfavorable. With good habits, it\u2019s often the reverse. The immediate outcome of going to the gym, certainly early on, is your muscles are sore, you sweat, it takes a lot of energy and effort. You don\u2019t have a whole lot to show for it, your body looks the same in the mirror at the end of the night. It\u2019s only the ultimate outcome, two or five years later, where you like, \u201cOh, now I have the change that I was working toward.\u201d So a lot of the game, or a lot of the challenge of getting good habits to stick and getting bad habits to break is finding ways to pull the consequences of your bad habits into the immediate moment.<\/p>\n
So you feel a little bit of that pain right now, and finding ways to pull the rewards of your good habits into the immediate moment, so it feels good, and you have a reason to enjoy it, and so on. Ultimately, once a good habit is really established and built, and it kind of ties into that identity concept that we\u2019re talking about before, you\u2019re getting some of the reward just as soon as you do it. If you view yourself as I\u2019m the type of person who doesn\u2019t miss workouts, well, right, when you\u2019re in the middle of doing a set of squats, you\u2019re kind of reinforcing that desired identity. So, already, you\u2019re getting some benefit from doing it, even if you got to wait for your body to change. Now, of course, it takes a while for you to actually truly believe that. That\u2019s kind of ultimately what we\u2019re working towards.<\/p>\n
So that brings me to the next point I wanted to ask you as one of the experts and habits. One of the problems that I found in business is it\u2019s very difficult for me to distance myself from the actions I take in business that give me a direct dopamine hit and it sounds very familiar to what \u2026 or similar to what you\u2019re saying when you say hey, smoking a cigarette actually does accomplish its purpose, drinking alcohol does accomplish a goal. Part of what you have to do is understand where do you want to go to know if this is a good habit or a bad habit, but I found that if I go take a listing, I have a real estate team and they signed that listing agreement, I get a shot of dopamine, I was clearly successful.<\/p>\n
I did what I wanted to do. It feels good. I get an immediate gratification. Then, I have to go do all the work associated with that. The next time a listing comes, I have to go do it again. If I train somebody else, how to do it, I relieve myself of the problems that come with taking a listing but I also lose the dopamine hit that I got when I did a good job. I could have five people out there, taking five times as many listings and it is better for my business intrinsically to be that way but for David Greene, it does not feel as good. I\u2019m missing that jolt I was getting and that is \u2026 it seems like it always \u2026 that\u2019s why I get sucked back into doing things that I know, that I shouldn\u2019t be doing. Can you comment on, if I\u2019m the only person in the world that has this problem or if I\u2019m going to keep going through this too.<\/p>\n
Yeah, well, I mean, I\u2019m sure you\u2019re not. I think there\u2019s like a \u2026 strategy is always one level up from whatever you\u2019re talking about. Right now, we\u2019re talking about the mechanics of listings and so on, so like what\u2019s one level up from that? I would say, there\u2019s a bigger conversation that we need to have about what am I optimizing for and you need to have a good answer to that question so that you can make choices like that because if you don\u2019t know what you\u2019re optimizing for, you almost always just end up doing what makes you feel good in the moment, because if I don\u2019t know roughly what to choose between these two choices, well might as well choose one that makes you feel good. A lot of people find themselves doing that all the time. They aren\u2019t sure what they\u2019re really working toward, or what they\u2019re optimizing for.<\/p>\n
So it becomes hard to delay gratification, because it\u2019s more difficult for you to envision what exactly is important to you. The truth is, from a business standpoint, yeah, it probably is better to have a team of listing agents doing that. If that\u2019s what you\u2019re optimizing for, then it\u2019s easier to make that choice, but if actually you enjoy that part of the process, then maybe it does make sense for you to do it. I don\u2019t know what the right answer is for you and it\u2019s going to be different for each person. If I think about my business, technically, I could achieve a lot more scale, if I hired a bunch of writers to do the writing for me and then I play the role of editor or I just kind of oversaw the whole operation, we could be putting out more books, some authors, some real high level authors do this, like James Patterson has like a team of people who write for him, and he sort of just does the outlines.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s why he\u2019s able to come out with a book every three months or six months. I\u2019m not interested in that. That\u2019s not what I want to optimize for. Nothing necessarily wrong with it for somebody else, but because I want to optimize for \u2026 I don\u2019t know, I just feel like I should be the one producing the work and I should be the one writing all the words, then that\u2019s going to change the shape of the business. So, I guess, there\u2019s sort of two answers. The first answer is what you\u2019re discussing about having immediate dopamine hits versus delaying gratification. Clearly, there\u2019s an important life lesson there and the more that something serves you in the moment, probably the more you should question whether it\u2019s the right long term behavior, because usually delaying gratification, is the better choice.<\/p>\n
Then there\u2019s also a separate discussion about what am I optimizing for and what actually does this look like for me, rather than just chasing status or chasing success or doing it because that\u2019s how everybody else does it?<\/p>\n
I want to ask kind of a cliche question, but it\u2019s one that comes up a lot. Is there a number of days, repetitions that cements a habit in, right? We\u2019ve all heard, what are that, 20 something days and then I think the one thing, talk about 66 days, and they\u2019ve got these numbers, but what do you see as the truth about developing a habit? How long does it actually take?<\/p>\n
Yeah, there are multiple numbers floating around, 21 and 30 days are very common things that you\u2019ll hear, those have kind of been I don\u2019t know, historically, the myths or the statements people make, 66 days is a common one right now. There was one study that showed that on average, it took about 66 days to build a habit. Even within that study, the range is quite wide. So as soon as you start to unpack this, it immediately makes sense that the answer is it depends, because some habits are harder than others, so what the study found was that something really simple like drinking a glass of water at lunch might only take you a few weeks, something more difficult, like going for a run after work each day, might take seven or eight or nine months.<\/p>\n
Then even within that \u2026 This isn\u2019t part of the study. This is just me talking now. Imagine two people trying to build the habit of going for a run after work each day. Well, if one person lives with a bunch of roommates, who are all athletes, then that\u2019s like much more within the social norm. If another person goes home and nobody in the apartment exercises, then now you\u2019re going against the grain of the group. So, the same habit can be easier or harder depending on the context as well. The punchline to all of this, I think, is that the true answer, the honest answer to how long does it take to build a habit is forever, because if you stop doing it, it\u2019s no longer a habit and what I\u2019m getting at with that is, habits are not a finish line to be crossed, right?<\/p>\n
They\u2019re this lifestyle to be lived. As soon as you start to appreciate that and accept that, you look for changes that are small and non-threatening and sustainable, and that you can integrate into your daily routine, and you start to realize, \u201cOh, what I\u2019m actually trying to do here is make a lifestyle change, not be healthy for 30 days, and then I don\u2019t have to worry about it anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n
Yeah.<\/p>\n
I think that the saying that it only takes 21 days or 30 days or whatever. It just sort of implies that, even though that\u2019s not the reality,<\/p>\n
Yeah, I did that \u2026 you know that 75 hard program, I think Andy Frisella\u2019s Program where like, yeah, for 75 days, you workout twice a day, a gallon of water, read 10 pages in the books. So, I did this, right? I went all 75 days. I worked out twice a day for 75 days and had the gallon of water and everything else. Day 76, I didn\u2019t workout. Day 77, I didn\u2019t work out. I drink a cup of water for like those days. Since, like I have not worked out everyday \u2026 I mean, I workout maybe three times a week now, two or three times a week, but I did that before too. It didn\u2019t matter if I did it 70. I did it 150 times, right? It didn\u2019t matter. It just doesn\u2019t matter, because \u2026 the way I look at that is \u2026 Dave is laughing at me-<\/p>\n
Why would you do that? That\u2019s like, I went to BUD\/S camp and I graduated, then they said, \u201cHey, are you ready be a Seal,\u201d and you\u2019re like, \u201cNo, I just stopped.\u201d<\/p>\n
What\u2019s funny, because it was a finish line. I mean, it was a goal, I don\u2019t regret doing it. It was great. I got some good fitness and whatever, but the 150 time repetition wasn\u2019t enough to make it a habit because in my head, it was a finish line I had to get to. It wasn\u2019t an identity shift of I workout twice a day, every day. That\u2019s how I am. Kind of like I\u2019m not eating sugar for the next month versus I don\u2019t eat sugar, right? Those are identity \u2026 like just revisiting that concept, those are identity phrases not quick actions.<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t necessarily have anything wrong with challenges, like if it\u2019s something that motivates you and gets you going gets you to take action, then that\u2019s fine. You often see the behavior that you just described, which is what I would call like, people fall into this yo-yo cycle where they do something to train for the half marathon or to complete the 75 hard or whatever it is, and then they find that they oscillate back to their old style immediately after, and then it takes two or three months, and they\u2019re like, \u201cMan, I haven\u2019t done anything. Now I need to pick up something else and do that.\u201d It\u2019s just this back and forth, rather than a consistent ride. However, it\u2019s kind of \u2026 there\u2019s like this lesson about life where it\u2019s useful to have a plan or to have made a plan, even if everything doesn\u2019t go to plan.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s still helpful to have done that and I think that\u2019s also true for frameworks or sometimes even challenges. It\u2019s useful to know these things, or to try them or to have a framework to follow, even if you don\u2019t end up sticking to it, because in order for anybody to get results, you have to have a willingness to experiment. It doesn\u2019t matter if it\u2019s the best book you\u2019ve ever read in the world, or the most motivating documentary you\u2019ve ever seen. The plan can be perfect, but if you don\u2019t have a willingness to take action and to experiment, you\u2019re never going to figure out how to apply it to your life. So, that\u2019s kind of one of the funny things about people like, \u201cOh, but will this work for me?\u201d The point is, actually, nobody knows if it will or not. You\u2019re the only one who can figure that out if you\u2019re willing to experiment.<\/p>\n
So I think you actually need a combination. You need a really good plan, which obviously, I\u2019m biased, but I hope that Atomic Habits, in the case of habits, like lays that out and gives you a good framework and this is a great starting place. Then you also need to combine that with a willingness to self experiment and a willingness to try things in your life and then, it\u2019s the combination of the two that ends up helping you figure out something that actually works for you. So, I don\u2019t recommend challenges personally, but I don\u2019t necessarily have anything wrong with them, because I do think they get people to start experimenting, and start trying, and then maybe you find a couple things that work for you. Eventually you come up with your own system that fits your specific life, rather than worrying about following some perfectly outlined blueprint.<\/p>\n
Yeah, that\u2019s really good. Yeah, I\u2019m like \u2026 I definitely drink more water now than I did beforehand. So, it like raised my thermostat, maybe a little bit, even if I didn\u2019t get the full on and I\u2019ve done other challenges over the years. Yes some of them have helped and been awesome, some haven\u2019t. We do something every quarter roughly at BiggerPockets. We call it the 90 day challenge, and all I basically tell people is, \u201cCan you analyze a deal every day for 90 days?\u201d The only thing I really want them to do is just build up that skill. I don\u2019t care if they actually analyze it for the rest of their life. I just want them to get good at analyzing numbers because in real estate, everything is about the math.<\/p>\n
You know what\u2019s funny. In most areas of life. The person who learns the most in any classroom is the teacher, not the students because you got to know the material really well in order to teach it. So, in many areas, we often tell ourselves something like, I\u2019m not ready to get started yet, I need to learn more. The truth is the best way to learn is by taking action. So, exercises like that, where you analyze deals for 90 days. Yeah, now you\u2019re actually learning because actually doing the work. I think almost anybody, regardless of field, who said something like that, like what I learned in college was okay but it doesn\u2019t help me that much. I don\u2019t think about back to my biology class or something.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s actually doing the work that teaches you the skills that you need to know. So the faster that you can get to doing the real thing, usually, the faster the learning comes.<\/p>\n
I would say that stands very true in our world. If I think about the people who have the most success investing in real estate, they are people who bought a house, lived in it, decided they were going to move, didn\u2019t want to sell it, had to rent it out, and just did the stuff that happened. The people who have to go buy that house and put 20% down, can\u2019t stop asking questions to need to feel prepared. What do I do, if this happens? What do I do if that happens, but when you just fall into it, that\u2019s kind of how I got into it. Those problems don\u2019t seem very big. So Brandon has become very good at this.<\/p>\n
Yeah, you just need a strong bias toward action. If you have that bias to \u2026 you trust that you\u2019ll figure it out along the way, rather than feeling like you need to figure it all out before you can take a step, they lead to wildly different outcomes.<\/p>\n
Yeah, I think you\u2019re right, and what we end up telling newbies and what I tell myself a lot of the time in anything is if that person can do it, I can do it, that\u2019s sort of how I get over that initial, I don\u2019t know if I\u2019m ready for this, is I find somebody who\u2019s clearly unprofessional or not good at what they\u2019re doing, and I see them having success and then I just remind myself, I don\u2019t need to have all the answers because they figured it out. I\u2019m sure I can do it. I guess what I\u2019m getting at is, a lot of what it takes to be successful, is getting over the own sabotage that your brain comes up with that stops you from just taking action, that\u2019s all it really comes down to,<\/p>\n
For sure people are their own bottleneck, usually long before the circumstances are the actual bottleneck. They\u2019re so worried about the circumstances holding them back, but they never get to the point where it actually is the reason for them not being able to move forward. There\u2019s this weird tension that you have to have because like I simultaneously \u2026 what I also believe is, it is worth it to do the reading or to do the research, to be well prepared. Preparation is very important in life, but I think the key distinguishing thing is, at some point planning becomes its own form of procrastination. So the question is, is continuing to research and prepare and ask questions and try to increase my knowledge, is that enhancing the actions that I\u2019m taking or is it substituting for the actions that I could be taking, because when planning and preparation starts to substitute for taking action, it\u2019s no longer useful.<\/p>\n
If it\u2019s accelerating and enhancing the things that you\u2019re doing, then that\u2019s great, but a lot of people use it as a crutch rather than running the risk of potentially failing.<\/p>\n
Well, let\u2019s talk about bad habits for a little bit. It\u2019s probably something that people would love to hear about. There\u2019s a lot of bad habits out there, whether it\u2019s smoking, drinking, whatever, or the biggest habit of all, which is for most people, which is their phone, right? I mean, the number of times I pick up my phone every day, it\u2019s ridiculous and I can go show Sprint of like, \u201cHey, 30 days, I\u2019m not going to use my phone,\u201d and I might do it and as soon as I\u2019m done with that little challenge, I\u2019m back to using my phone five hours a day, right? What kind of framework have you looked at as being successful for eliminating the bad habits in our life? You said, apply some negative consequences sooner, but what does it look like on a tangible level?<\/p>\n
I generally think that the most effective place to start for breaking bad habits is one of two areas. So in my framework, it\u2019s either the cue or the actual action itself, the response. So you either make the cues less obvious, or you make the action more difficult. So it looks like the following things, making it less obvious and stuff like if you are online shopping too much, then spending too much money there and that\u2019s a bad habit, you want to break, well unsubscribe from emails, you shouldn\u2019t be getting bombarded by Nordstrom, and all these other places, if you don\u2019t want to buy those things. If you feel like you spend too much money on the latest tech gear, then don\u2019t read the latest tech review blogs or follow unboxing videos on YouTube. If you\u2019re trying to follow a particular diet, don\u2019t follow a bunch of food bloggers on Instagram.<\/p>\n
People are constantly being triggered by the things they\u2019re trying to avoid. So reduce exposure to the cue is one way. You can also do this with physical things, so like for myself, I\u2019ve noticed that if I buy a six pack of beer, and I put it in the fridge and it\u2019s like right in the door or right there at the front, where I see it as soon as I open the fridge up, I\u2019ll grab one every night and have it with dinner just because it\u2019s there. If I put it at the bottom of the fridge and tuck it like all the way in the back where I kind of got a bend down in order to be able to see it, sometimes it\u2019ll sit there for weeks, I won\u2019t even remember that I have it and I noticed something is a similar pattern with my phone, you mentioned and checking your phone all the time. I\u2019m the same way. If my phone is next to me, I\u2019m like everybody else, I\u2019ll check my phone every three minutes just because it\u2019s there.<\/p>\n
I have a home office. So, I tried to follow this little personal rule where I leave my phone in another room until lunch each day and I\u2019m at home anyway, it\u2019s only 30 seconds away. It\u2019s just down the hallway, but I never go get it. So, I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, did I want it or not?\u201d In one sense, I wanted it because I would check it every three minutes if it was next to me but in another sense, I never wanted it bad enough to go work 30 seconds and walk down the hall and get it.<\/p>\n
Yeah.<\/p>\n
You\u2019d be surprised how many bad habits fall into that kind of pattern that if you just increase the friction a little bit, the behavior sort of curtails itself. So, I think that\u2019s the first place to start is with environment design. Let\u2019s remove it from the environment entirely, so don\u2019t keep junk food in the house or something like that, or let\u2019s just reduce exposure to it by reshaping the environment a little bit, or unsubscribing from emails or whatever. Just those things are a good start. Tons of examples for social media stuff, turning off notifications or when you log out of the app, just delete the app from your phone. So next time, if you want to log into Instagram, you have to download it again. Just that little bit of friction of having to go to the App Store and wait a minute, is often enough for you to realize I don\u2019t really care about this, I\u2019m just checking it because I got 10 seconds free.<\/p>\n
You\u2019d be surprised how many behaviors just doing that kind of stuff will help reduce to the desired level.<\/p>\n
I once heard Tim Ferriss say that he turns his phone on black and white, and so that way, it\u2019s black \u2026 so he picks up the phone. It\u2019s just like this little quick trigger to go like, \u201cOh, that\u2019s right. I don\u2019t really need my phone right now,\u201d I use that on and off but I like that idea. I haven\u2019t even set up a shortcut. If I click my button three times, it\u2019ll go black and white and then, it\u2019s just a little bit of a cue there, just to remind me, \u201cHey, don\u2019t do that.\u201d I also got myself one of those \u2026 the Apple watches that have like the cellular so the idea being, I can still text, I can still call. It just adds this barrier that makes it annoying. So I rarely do it.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s just enough of the hassle that you\u2019re like, I\u2019m not going to bother.<\/p>\n
Yeah, because I\u2019m going to text somebody. I\u2019m going to like do the voice text, right? I\u2019m like, \u201cHey, I\u2019ll meet you at noon,\u201d and it says, \u201cHey, look at the moon.\u201d I\u2019m like no, and I send the wrong one. In fact, he\u2019s trying to text right now, just I mean, mostly with my hand. It\u2019s just enough of a hassle that I\u2019m like, \u201cI didn\u2019t really need to respond to that right now anyway.\u201d<\/p>\n
There are some really extreme examples, there\u2019s a product called the Kitchen Safe, that is a Tupperware container and it\u2019s programmable, so you can lock the top. So, I\u2019ve talked to a variety of different people that want to curb late night snacking, or something like that. So after dinner ends, the Doritos, and the chips and everything go in the Kitchen Safe, and they lock it, and it won\u2019t open again until 7 AM the next day. They\u2019re not going to eat anything before they go to bed. There are ways to use technology like that. Ultimately, I think those things are short term solutions, but they can all be helpful in kind of getting you toward the desired outcome.<\/p>\n
Yeah, there\u2019s a \u2026 I don\u2019t know where this falls in this conversation, I guess but I\u2019ll throw out the example anyway. For years, I would drink a peppermint hot chocolate every single day from Starbucks, every day. I love them. I mean, every single day, seven days a week, 365 probably like three years. Then, definitely a habit. Definitely like I needed it every day, it just was a thing. Then one day, I looked at the sugar content of how much was sugar was in there, right? I realized there was more sugar when I was drinking, in a can of soda, a can of Coke. Now, I would make fun of people or laugh at like my dad who would drink a can of Coke or two, every single day and I realized I was worse than my dad in terms of my sugar consumption for the same thing that I made fun of other people.<\/p>\n
That day was my last peppermint hot chocolate, other than I get one on Christmas now. That was never had any \u2026 like no withdrawals. I mean, there was no like \u2026 my habit changed immediately because there was like this emotional, maybe it\u2019s an identity thing, right? Maybe, something changed in me. So today, I would say like media changes mindset, a lot or there\u2019s other things like if something convinced me in my head, and this wasn\u2019t really media, but if something in my head changed, that I was like you, gross, right and like it\u2019s deeper than just a, \u201cI\u2019m not going to buy peppermint hot chocolate today. I\u2019m going to have strong willpower.\u201d Something else changed there that made that no longer an issue. I just feel like if I could apply that to every area of my life, I could build any habit or destroy any habit and I haven\u2019t been able to fully repeat it with almost anything, but that\u2019s one example of what I did.<\/p>\n
Yeah, I do think that\u2019s close to this kind of identity conversation we\u2019ve had, with the story that you tell yourself about what things mean.<\/p>\n
Yeah, I don\u2019t eat that much sugar. That\u2019s ridiculous.<\/p>\n
It changed the meaning that you assigned to what a cup of peppermint hot chocolate was. It changed how you felt about the prediction that you made about whether that was enjoyable or useful or favorable or not. That\u2019s a real life example, which I love, that you have that I\u2019ve often given this hypothetical example of like, imagine you walk into your kitchen in the morning and you see a loaf of bread and you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, I\u2019ll make some toast for breakfast,\u201d and you put it in, you make it and whatever. You kind of do this throughout the \u2026 every day and then you go read some diet book that convinces you that like, carbs are terrible, and grain is the devil, and you should never touch it again.<\/p>\n
If you genuinely have that kind of mindset shift, the next morning you walk in, you see that loaf of bread and you don\u2019t think I should make toast, you think I need to throw that out. People have those types of mindset shifts or epiphanies, or whatever you want to call that, occasionally. It\u2019s rare, it\u2019s hard to bank on but you are right. If you could do that, if you could reassign the story in your head about what that habit means or about what that item signifies, then it\u2019d be much easier to stick to a whole host of behaviors. That\u2019s a very interesting example of how you were able to do it.<\/p>\n
I went vegan for a while, or at least vegetarian and the way I did it, I just like, to make it not \u2026 I watched like three documentaries on Netflix about like Veganism. I\u2019m like, I didn\u2019t even cared about meat. Now eventually, I got kind of back on it now, like a little bit of meat, but-<\/p>\n
Kind of like intentionally propagandize-<\/p>\n
Exactly, exactly what that is. I did that for my wife when we got into real estate investing. There\u2019s a book called Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki and I really want her to read it because it changed my whole mindset about money and saving and kind of like what people should do, right? So she didn\u2019t want to read it. So, I traded her if she read Twilight \u2026 or no, if I read Twilight, she would read Rich Dad, Poor Dad. So I read all of Twilight and she read Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and immediately changed her mindset as well, because like media, like the books you read, the podcasts you listen to, it changes your mindset. So, you kind of propagandize yourself, is that the word, propagandize yourself?<\/p>\n
That\u2019s actually \u2026 pretty much every thought you have is downstream from what you consume.<\/p>\n
Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n
So, in this case, you\u2019re talking about books or documentaries, which is obviously a crucial thing about selecting but the real big one for all of us is social media.<\/p>\n
Yes, yes.<\/p>\n
People don\u2019t think about it this way, but when you choose who you follow on Twitter, or Instagram, or wherever, you\u2019re choosing your future thoughts. We think, \u201cOh I\u2019m just following a celebrity or, and I\u2019m following this person, or whatever,\u201d but you\u2019re crafting the information flows that are going to be coming to you. You\u2019re crafting the content that you\u2019re going to see, day in and day out. So you are choosing your future mood and your future emotions and your future mindset. I think we need to think much more carefully about who we select, and who we follow, because it\u2019s going to influence you in a much larger way than you think, that media changes mindset idea, I think it\u2019s very powerful.<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t know, yeah, it feels so stupid, because we feel like as humans, we should just be able to make a decision, like why can\u2019t I just not eat the chips that are on the counter? I posted a thing on my Instagram somewhere. We shared some meme the other day. It said, you\u2019ll never know how little self control you have until you get to that Mexican restaurant with this chips and salsa. I was like, that\u2019s totally true. I cannot not eat the chips and salsa, because I just lacked the self control, but while we can\u2019t necessarily \u2026 I mean, if they can\u2019t, but why don\u2019t change the action in the moment, like you said, you can back up a step and change the cue, I can choose not like \u2026 it\u2019s easy for me to choose to go to a Mexican restaurant or not. I mean, \u201cNo, let\u2019s go here instead.\u201d<\/p>\n
Once I\u2019m in that moment, it doesn\u2019t work anymore. So I mean, is that the key to self control is just environmental change in that or some people just really good at just saying no to the chips?<\/p>\n
I think it\u2019s the key long term. You can overpower your environment for a day or a week, like you can do \u2026 you guys have already talked about some of these challenges and stuff you do it for 30 days, you cannot eat chips and salsa, if that was like a big important thing for you, but in the long run, environment overpowers your willpower. It\u2019s kind of like a form of gravity. It just pulls you toward. The reason I think it\u2019s fairly simple, I mean, we all have busy lives. We have multiple priorities, we got kids to take care of our parents to do favors for or things that are due at work or organizations we volunteer for. It\u2019s less stuff competing for your time and attention. When you don\u2019t have capacity, when you\u2019re tired, when you don\u2019t have a ton of energy, when you are just pressed for time and need to make a quick choice, what do you do?<\/p>\n
You often choose the most obvious thing, you choose the path of least resistance. So, if the chips are on the table, and you\u2019re hungry after a long day at work, and you\u2019re chatting with friends, you just eat them because they\u2019re there. It\u2019s not because you are incapable making the choice, it\u2019s just that the energy has been spent in many other areas. So you can\u2019t choose something you can order a dish if it\u2019s not on the menu. That idea I think can be applied to pretty much any environment, just shape the environment and if it\u2019s not a choice there, then you don\u2019t have to worry about falling into it when you don\u2019t have energy and so on. So I feel like environment design is a very powerful way to change behavior. In the long run, yeah, it probably is the secret to self control, because environment tends to overpower your willpower and discipline.<\/p>\n
I have an example of how that sort of working out in my life right now. Do you guys want me to bear my soul in front of all 250,000 people? So Brandon, and I recently started doing Jiu Jitsu, and when I say that, I mean like, once every week or two, maybe less than that. Actually, it\u2019s not that often, but doing it is terrible. I\u2019m not as good at it as I want to be. It is physically taxing and painful. It\u2019s humbling in a lot of ways. It\u2019s overall a really unpleasant experience for most of the time, but it triggers a part of me that I\u2019m not going to quit it, and I don\u2019t want to be bad at it. So what happens is, I start thinking, I want to be in better shape. I want to have more energy, I want to be conscious of what I\u2019m doing. I want to have more discipline.<\/p>\n
So the choices I was having a very hard time making regarding like my diet, I know I should not eat, if I eat a sandwich in the middle of the day, I\u2019ll get in like a fog, and for five hours, I\u2019ll have no energy, I won\u2019t be able to think. I always tell people, for the 23 hours and 59 minutes of the day, I have amazing willpower except for the one minute when it\u2019s actually time to make the choice of what I\u2019m going to eat. Then all of a sudden, that salad that I\u2019ve told myself, I\u2019m going to eat all day turns into the sandwich. Knowing that I\u2019m going to go train that day, I will not eat that sandwich, because I\u2019m thinking I\u2019m not going to be sluggish when there\u2019s someone trying to pop my head off of my body, right?<\/p>\n
It makes it easier to make that choice. The same thing goes with like, \u201cI really should get up and exercise today but I don\u2019t want to.\u201d When I\u2019m training for something, when I was going into the police academy, when I was playing a sport, now that I\u2019m doing this, I know I\u2019m going to be going to classes, that discipline required to go exercise or eat better, it becomes way easier. So, it really ties into what you\u2019re saying, James that I put myself in a different environment and all of a sudden making better choices became a whole lot easier. There was some skin in the game as far as those choices I made, and I\u2019m sort of talking out loud thinking, that may be why, when we say your environment will dictate how you act, that we can make a conscious choice to put ourselves in the environment. Being in the environment will lead to all the results we\u2019re talking about here.<\/p>\n
Two things that popped in my head as you\u2019re talking through that. So first is you joke about like having willpower for 23 hours and 59 minutes, but then not for that one minute when you need to choose, what you\u2019re really saying is you have willpower when you don\u2019t have to make the choice, which is actually more insightful than it might seem on the surface, because what it\u2019s saying is, if you\u2019re not surrounded by the choice, you\u2019re fine, you don\u2019t go seek it out. It\u2019s just when it\u2019s right in front of you. That I think is one of the key points, I\u2019m trying to get at with the environment design pieces. Let\u2019s just remove that stuff. If you don\u2019t face the temptation, you don\u2019t have to worry about resisting it. So, yeah, you can choose to reshape that environment in a way that reduces the temptations that you face.<\/p>\n
You don\u2019t have to worry about that one minute because now it\u2019s just 24 hours straight where you don\u2019t face it.<\/p>\n
Yeah, as I said, David hired \u2026 Because I actually wanted this too. You hired like a cook in your area, right, to make you seven lunches, and they\u2019re pre-made and they\u2019re in your fridge ready to be warmed up every day. All of a sudden, it\u2019s there, you just change the environment.<\/p>\n
So you don\u2019t have to decide, it\u2019s already pre-done. I mean, there\u2019s \u2026 and that actually leads into kind of the second thing I was going to say, which is you know that this Jiu Jitsu or whatever you\u2019re focus on is important to you. So, once you know what you\u2019re optimizing for, a lot of the other decisions that used to be challenging are no longer challenging, it\u2019s easy to say no to it. Imagine how much easier it is to say no to going to happy hour for an Olympic athlete versus like the average person who\u2019s just part of the team at the office. Well, the athlete is like, \u201cListen, this does not help me get closer to my goal,\u201d and they know what that vision is very clearly. So saying no to happy hour is like not even \u2026 or a sacrifice for them, really.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s just like, \u201cNo, that doesn\u2019t make sense.\u201d It\u2019s only when you don\u2019t know what you\u2019re optimizing for that it becomes difficult to delineate and to choose between these different options. So, in a sense, it\u2019s nice to have a priority to organize your life around, I\u2019m not saying everybody needs to be as intense as an Olympic athlete, but it\u2019s just that the more clearly you know what you\u2019re optimizing for, the more decisions sort of naturally make themselves rather than you having to carefully choose.<\/p>\n
Yeah, it\u2019s amazing how much easier those right quote, unquote choices become when you have the goal. I think about people that struggle with saving. Most of my life, I was a really good saver, spending money, I just didn\u2019t understand why people can\u2019t save money. It just didn\u2019t make any sense to me. That\u2019s because I always wanted to invest in something. I was always saving to buy a car, saving to buy a house, saving to do a thing. I was tracking it and as we\u2019re talking, I\u2019m realizing that\u2019s why that was so easy for me is I had goal the whole time. For the people that are having a hard time saving that might be exactly why it\u2019s tough, is they don\u2019t have a reason-<\/p>\n
If they\u2019re optimizing for immediate pleasure and improvement of their life, they\u2019re not optimizing for retirement or for 30 years from now.<\/p>\n
Or for the gratification they\u2019ll get from buying a house instead of renting one or owning an investment property or whatever it is that that goal is like, I would think the minute that someone commits to, \u201cI\u2019m going to buy a house in 2022 or whatever, I need X amount of money,\u201d all of a sudden saying no to that new video game or whatever it is that you like to spend money on, just like you said, James, going into the bar. People spend 80, 100 bucks in a night, just buying drinks, right, which makes no sense and they\u2019ll go do that type of thing. I think that becomes a lot easier when there\u2019s a goal. So now I\u2019m wondering if the people I know that seem to have the least self discipline are the same people that have the least clearly defined goals?<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t know for sure, but I think there\u2019s probably a connection.<\/p>\n
All right. Well, we got to start kind of wrapping up things. Well, on the \u2026 I mean, this is like the last topic. I\u2019m wondering how do you view like goal setting? Kind of before we moved to the Famous Four, do you think it\u2019s good to have like \u2026 I got my annual goal, I got my \u2026 it\u2019s the new year\u2019s resolution, where do you view that stuff?<\/p>\n
I think goals are necessary, but not sufficient for success.<\/p>\n
Instagram quote card right there.<\/p>\n
Let\u2019s take like \u2026 consider, we\u2019re just talked about Olympic athletes, imagine any athlete at the Olympic Games, presumably, all of them have the goal of winning the gold medal but only one does. So clearly, the goal is not the difference in their performance or if you have 100 candidates apply for a job, presumably all of them have the goal of getting the job, but only one person does. So you see this type of pattern again and again, which is in most domains in life, the winners and losers often have the same goals. So, if they have the same goals, but different outcomes, the goal cannot be the thing that makes a difference in their performance. This is one of the reasons why I come back to habits so much, what is it that makes the difference, if it\u2019s not the goal, it\u2019s usually the system that they\u2019re following.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s the collection of habits that they follow each day. In fact, if there\u2019s a gap between your goal and your system, if there\u2019s a gap between your desired outcome and your daily habits, your daily habits will always win, right? Almost by definition, whatever system you\u2019ve been running for, say the last six months or year, has carried you inevitably to the results that you have right now. So, if you want to change the outcome, you need to change the habits, you need to change the system that you\u2019re following. Now, that doesn\u2019t mean that goals are useless. I think goals have quite a few use cases that they\u2019re very helpful for. The first one is what we\u2019ve been talking about clarity and knowing what you\u2019re optimizing for, and so on.<\/p>\n
Second one is filtering. It\u2019s much easier to filter out opportunities and say no to stuff or say yes to certain things, if you know what the goal is. If you know is this going to be taking me closer to or further from the thing that\u2019s important to me? So that\u2019s really helpful, so my general approach \u2026 this ties back to a couple different things we\u2019ve talked about today already. First, let me try to envision the ideal outcome. So I like to phrase work backwards from magic. What is the magical outcome going to be? Then can I work backwards from there, but I don\u2019t want to fix myself into only one line of thinking or only one path. I want to have multiple pathways to the magical outcome, multiple pathways to a successful result, because the truth is, you don\u2019t know what\u2019s going to happen. You don\u2019t know how things are going to play out.<\/p>\n
So I heard this framework recently. It comes from Sean Perry\u2019s Entrepreneur Investor, but he calls it ABZ. So know your ABZs. So A is where you are right now. B is your next step. Z is ultimately where you want to go. So I start at Z, let me figure out where I want to go. Then you have to be honest about A, where am I right now? What do I actually have? What resources do I have? What skills do I have? What is the truth of the situation? What\u2019s the reality? You don\u2019t actually need to know, C through Y, you don\u2019t need to know the rest of the steps. All you need to know is what is B going to be? What\u2019s my next step going to be? Can I take action right away and then I can just repeat that again.<\/p>\n
So now B has become A, this is the current spot? How can I do it one more time? If you do that all the way and kind of keep revisiting Z and thinking backwards and is this taking me closer or further away, you can often do some really cool stuff, just by trying to follow that. So that\u2019s kind of more generally how I think about goal setting. I think it\u2019s important to know where I\u2019m heading, but I want the bulk of my attention focused on the system and the habits and just going from A to B<\/p>\n
Yeah, that\u2019s really, really good man. Yeah, really good. When I think of like my real estate investment, I don\u2019t want to spend a lot of time on this example, but my real estate investment company, we buy like apartments and mobile home parks and stuff. Anyway, we had a goal for like \u2026 a three year goal, like the Z was to buy 50 million dollars in real estate, but then we broke that down quarterly and then more importantly, we set like these habits that \u2026 and I never thought about in terms of habits until just today on this call, but that\u2019s really what they are. We have these habits that we do all the time. Do we contact this broker? Do we analyze this deal? Do we make this offer? These are the habits that we just like, track meticulously and make sure that we\u2019re accomplishing them to the point that they\u2019re second nature for my team.<\/p>\n
So, over the course of a year, we ended up buying that 50 million dollars, which was awesome but then what was crazy is like two weeks ago or three weeks ago now, we got 50 million dollars under contract in a single week. So like my three year goal just happened in a week and when my team \u2026 we kind of all sat down going, \u201cWhat just happened? How did this happen?\u201d We realized like, it was literally just because like, we did that exact ABZ kind of thing. We knew where we\u2019re going but there was always, \u201cOkay, what\u2019s the what\u2019s the habits? What\u2019s the A, what\u2019s the B? Okay, now we move to B to the A.\u201d It\u2019s this continual rhythm. Like you said, we focus on the systems and it\u2019s almost like laughable how well this thing works, yet majority of the world just doesn\u2019t operate that way. They just operate on why didn\u2019t I lose the weight? Why didn\u2019t I buy the real estate thing? Why didn\u2019t I write the book?<\/p>\n
What I like about that is this general approach, you kind of simultaneously have to hold these competing tensions in your mind, which is, don\u2019t rush. Don\u2019t do things thoughtlessly. Don\u2019t do things carelessly but also don\u2019t wait because waiting, all it does is just reduces the amount of life you have left to accomplish these things. So you need to have this bias toward action, but you also need to be thoughtful about the process. It doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re \u2026 you\u2019re not rushing around or doing things carelessly, but you\u2019re never waiting longer than you need to. So, don\u2019t rush but don\u2019t wait is \u2026 I think ABZ kind of aligns with that too. You\u2019re not rushing because you know what Z is? You know what you\u2019re optimizing for, but you\u2019re not waiting. You\u2019re trying to go from A to B right now.<\/p>\n
Yeah, I think that phrase is going to stick out to me the most from today\u2019s interview, which is that what are you optimizing for? I love that concept and I\u2019m glad you brought that up, because let\u2019s say, what are you working toward and are the habits lined up to get you there? If people just thought more that way, man, the world would be a different place. Thank you, man. Well, before we get out of here, we got a last segment of the show and that is called our \u2026<\/p>\n
Famous Four.<\/p>\n
These are the same four questions we ask every week of every guest. So we\u2019re going to throw them at you right now. First question actually is very closely related to what you teach. So the question is, what is the current habit or trait you\u2019re trying to develop or improve in your own life?<\/p>\n
I\u2019ve been working now for a long time, but I have never worked out five days a week. Usually I have done anywhere between two and four. For the last two months, I\u2019ve doing it five days a week. So, I have changed the style a little bit and trying to scale that up and just kind of make it more of a daily thing than an every other day thing.<\/p>\n
Next question, what is your favorite business book?<\/p>\n
I actually have one on my desk right now that I really enjoy, which is called Positioning. That\u2019s an old school. It\u2019s like 80s and 90s, but it\u2019s all about how you position ideas or position products, how you package things and I\u2019m not going to say it\u2019s my favorite business book, but I do think it\u2019s important and it\u2019s what I\u2019m thinking about right now. As an example, so Atomic Habits has a section later in the book, where I talk about deliberate practice. It could have been a book about deliberate practice, where I talk about habits, but instead, it was a book about habits where I talk about deliberate practice. I think the difference in how those two books would have sold is enormous. It all has to do with how the book is positioned. I decided to position the book, the core topic around habit change and habit formation, rather than around deliberate practice.<\/p>\n
I think that\u2019s key because most products that really do well tap into a desire people already have. Just by virtue of being part of society, and growing up in society, you sort of know already that good habits are important or favorable and bad habits are unfavorable. If you\u2019re not familiar with the term deliberate practice, it takes like 30 seconds to unpack it and you don\u2019t get 30 seconds, from people who are looking at book cover. That\u2019s too long, you\u2019ve already lost them. So anyway, how you position your product, how you position your offerings, I think is really important. So not my favorite business book ever, but one that I think is important and I\u2019ve been thinking a lot about recently.<\/p>\n
No, it\u2019s phenomenal. I\u2019m such a junkie for like frameworks, and how you teach a concept that people are going to be able to grasp on to, how you position it. So I\u2019ll pick up a copy of that book. Yeah. It\u2019s huge. I mean, I literally wrote a book called How to Invest in Real Estate and then one called The Book on Rental Property Investing, because I\u2019m like, \u201cThis is what people are searching for. This is what they want,\u201d and both of them are in the top, whatever, three of best selling real estate books because like, people \u2026 it\u2019s how you present stuff. It\u2019s how you \u2026 the framework you lay out, which is why I love the Atomic Habits, you have such good frameworks.<\/p>\n
What are some of your hobbies?<\/p>\n
I like weightlifting. I have a cabin in the woods and I love going ATB-ing and hiking in the woods and hanging out, out there. Pre-pandemic, I love traveling and have done travel photography in over 40 countries now and so I kind of like spent the last decade bouncing around and trying to do a lot of that. My two entry points into a culture when I visit some place are photography, so I try to find like cool places to take a few pictures that kind of encapsulate the trip and food. So yeah, I would say those are kind of my main things that I find interesting and exciting outside of the work I\u2019m doing.<\/p>\n
I would say, what\u2019s the best food in all Columbus Ohio, like if you could pick one thing, if I\u2019m going to go there for one dinner, where do I go? This is not a Famous Four question, but \u2026<\/p>\n
It really depends on what you like, of course. If you don\u2019t like Indian food, I\u2019m not going to send you to an Indian restaurant. Yeah, there are a couple different ones that I would recommend. Barcelona is a really good one, a Spanish place, they got great paella. They have like a porch out there, you can just sit on, the weather is nice. It\u2019s awesome. So I think you\u2019d be very happy with your dinner there.<\/p>\n
I love asking food people those questions because-<\/p>\n
I wanted to ask you for a favor, James, if you\u2019d be so kind. We had Jocko Willink on the podcast, and he forced Brandon to commit \u2026 to doing Jiu Jitsu and Brandon actually then had to do it, which I received the passive benefit of now that he has a personal trainer, I just jumped in with his guy and now, I\u2019m doing it. Can you get Brandon to commit to weightlifting because he hates it, but I think he would be much happier if you would do it.<\/p>\n
No, actually let me speak to this. I wanted to bring this up earlier. I want to know your thoughts on this, James. So, David said earlier, he\u2019s like \u2026 David said when he does Jiu Jitsu, it\u2019s hard. It\u2019s miserable. He struggles while doing it, but he knows it\u2019s good for long term. So he\u2019s in there and he\u2019s really like \u2026 it\u2019s terrible. He\u2019s out of breath. When I do Jiu Jitsu, I said this to a buddy yesterday. I said, every second is like the best second of my life. When I\u2019m doing it. I\u2019m not \u2026 I love every second of it. I\u2019m just in there and I love it. It feels so light and easy for me. Now, I\u2019m not making fun of David here because the exact opposite is true for David, when I was weightlifting. I go to a gym. I hate every second of it. I go because I have to, because I know I want to get muscly.<\/p>\n
I show up and I\u2019ll do it for a month maybe and then I\u2019ll stop again, because I just don\u2019t love it. So I\u2019m wondering like, I mean, how much? Do you feel \u2026 I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s a habit question, but is that why I\u2019ll probably continue with Jiu Jitsu for a long time and David won\u2019t, or like, can you muscle your way through something you don\u2019t like, just because you want the outcome?<\/p>\n
Look, it\u2019s hard to beat the person who\u2019s having fun, because at some point, everything gets hard. The person who is still having fun doing the hard thing is going to want to do it for longer or more than the person who feels like it\u2019s a grind. I think in a lot of ways, that\u2019s one of the central quests of living a good life is trying to figure out what is that thing that feels like fun to me, but feels like work to other people, because if it feels like fun to you then you just get to keep doing it and showing up. You often will stick with it long enough to develop better skills, which then means you\u2019re winning, so to speak, more in whatever way that happens to be true for that thing.<\/p>\n
Usually when you\u2019re winning more, you also feel even better about it. So it\u2019s kind of this like positive feedback loop. The other thing I\u2019ll say about it is, I don\u2019t really care. You guys should do whatever is exciting and enjoyable for you. I think a lot of the time people assume like, \u201cOh, this guy writes about habits. He probably is judging me for which habits I\u2019m doing.\u201d No. I don\u2019t view it as my job to figure that out. So I\u2019m happy to be helpful and give a toolkit that people can use and it\u2019s like, sometimes need a hammer and here\u2019s a strategy that can fit that, and sometimes you need a screwdriver, and here\u2019s the strategy that can fit that. I\u2019m not here to judge, that\u2019s for sure. So, I say choose whatever form of a habit serves you and if you do that, you\u2019re having a good time. I\u2019m happy to.<\/p>\n
Take that David Greene.<\/p>\n
My Jocko angle gained zero traction with you, James that had no impact. I was really hoping I could get a little \u2026 get some hooks in there. Brandon, nobody skinny likes lifting weights. Okay? You just got to do it for a little while. I didn\u2019t like it either when I was really skinny all the time, here\u2019s \u2026 I\u2019m going to get so good at Jiu Jitsu that you won\u2019t be able to get me off of you and the only way is if you get stronger.<\/p>\n
All right. All right. All right. Last question from me of the day, and then David\u2019s got one final one, but what do you think sets apart successful, I will say, entrepreneurs, from those who give up fail or never get started? If you could sum up all your advice, what makes somebody successful?<\/p>\n
Well, entrepreneurship is like this personal growth engine in disguise. You think it\u2019s about building a business, but actually you end up facing all of your own flaws and fears and worries and concerns. You\u2019re forced into having uncomfortable conversations, you\u2019re forced to realize not all of your ideas are good. So, you have to be self aware, in order to realize like, where those holes are, and what the gaps are. More than anything else, I\u2019d say you have to be willing to trust that you\u2019ll figure it out. There\u2019s always some point on the curve just ahead of you that you don\u2019t have the answer to. I mean, it\u2019s just the nature of running a business. Things are changing, the business is changing.<\/p>\n
There is no way that you can have it all mapped out ahead of time. So I think trusting yourself that you will figure it out as you go is probably the single biggest thing because the people who don\u2019t start, it\u2019s because they don\u2019t trust themselves. They feel like they need more information. They feel like they need to have the answers. They need a playbook, whatever and you can have some of that, but you\u2019re never going to have it all. They\u2019re just always going to be things that have to be resolved as they arise. So I think, one way I heard it phrased recently is that some people are problem solvers and some people are problem adders. So, with problem solvers, they look at what is awesome about this situation, and then they resolve the problems as they arise.<\/p>\n
With the problem adders, they look at what could go wrong with this situation, and they dream up problems before they happen. If you have that kind of mindset, then you\u2019re always going to be able to come up with reasons for why it\u2019s not the right time to start yet. If instead, you try to focus on the awesome bits, and then you solve things whenever they need to be solved, and trust yourself to figure it out along the way, then yeah, you got a shot. It doesn\u2019t guarantee success, but I think you need that mindset. If you\u2019re adding on layers of complication and layers of problems to it, it\u2019s just going to make it way harder than it needs to be.<\/p>\n
All right, last question of the day, James, where can people find out more about you?<\/p>\n
So if you enjoyed the conversation, you want to learn more about habits, Atomic Habits is probably the best place to start. You can find the book at atomichabits.com. If you just want to see more of my work, generally, it\u2019s all at jamesclear.com and probably the best way to start or get into the work is to join 3-2-1, which is my weekly newsletter. So each issue has three ideas for me, two quotes from other people and one question to think about during the week. It takes about two or three minutes to read. It goes out every Thursday. I think like 1.2 million people subscribe now. So anyway, feel free to check it out and I hope you enjoy it. Thanks for listening.<\/p>\n
By the way, man. 3-2-1 is another perfect example of like a framework or positioning, like you have something cool but people can wrap their head around that and go I want that, I want that right now. I\u2019m going to go sign up for it right now. So very cool, man. You\u2019re awesome at this.<\/p>\n
Awesome. Thanks, guys. Appreciate the opportunity. Great to talk to you.<\/p>\n
It was great. Thank you.<\/p>\n
Thank you James. This is David Greene for Brandon, do you even lift Bro Turner. Signing off.<\/p>\n
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